Wetenschapsforum

Glen Elliott, a psychiatrist from the University of California at San Francisco, is not convinced. He says attempting to diagnose on the basis of biographical information is extremely unreliable, and points out that any behaviour can have various causes. He thinks being highly intelligent would itself have shaped Newton and Einstein's personalities.  

"One can imagine geniuses who are socially inept and yet not remotely autistic," he says. "Impatience with the intellectual slowness of others, narcissism and passion for one's mission in life might combine to make such an individuals isolative and difficult." Elliott adds that Einstein had a good sense of humour, a trait that is virtually unknown in people with severe Asperger syndrome.

But Baron-Cohen thinks the idea is still worth considering - there may be certain niches in society where people with AS can flourish for their strengths rather than their social skills, he says. "This condition can make people depressed or suicidal, so if we can find out how to make things easier for them, that's worthwhile."

In ieder geval lijkt het bij hem in de genen te hebben gezeten want zijn zoon was ook een wetenschapper

Veertje schreef:Ik vind dus dat we Einstein's wel of niet autistisch zijn buiten de discussies over autisme moeten houden.

Wat denken jullie?

Maar dat wil niet zeggen dat de symptomen die jij noemt Asperger of enige andere vorm van autisme aantonen. Dat soort symptomen kunnen ook te maken hebben met zaken die ik in mijn startpost aanhaalde, d.w.z. de menselijke mechanismen waar Glen Elliot het over heeft. Ongeduld, narcisme en passie voor de eigen missie.  

Jouw conclusie snap ik niet? Je wilt hier toch niet mee zeggen (hoop ik) dat alle wetenschappers één of andere vorm van autisme hebben?  

Wat betreft het verband logica en het Asperger Syndroom. Is dat inderdaad aangetoond?

In zoverre dat het bewezen is dat als mensen buitengewoon logisch kunnen redeneren dat het dan aannemelijk geacht kan worden dat zij AS hebben?

de mens leeft niet meer. je kunt pas uitsluitsel krijgen als je hem in levende lijve bezig ziet over een langere periode. hoe redeneert hij, hoe praat hij, lichaamstaal, houding en dit in verschillende situaties (crisis, geluksmomenten, verdriet).  

het is vooral hierdoor dat het onmogelijk is om de diagnose te stellen.  

volgens mij was einstein er wel eentje  

het lijkt psychologisch ook niet slecht om te zeggen dat einstein er 1 was.  

al was het maar omdat het sommige hoop kan geven.

In his 2003 book The Essential Difference, professor Simon Baron-Cohen of the Autism Research Centre argued for the extreme male brain theory, which suggests that Asperger syndrome and autism represent an extreme form of the way in which men's brains differ from those of women[1][2]. As a result, people with Asperger Syndrome are good (often very good) at systemizing and very bad at empathizing [3][4]. The theory is linked with Baron-Cohen's "empathizing/systemizing (E-S)" theory which states that, in general, men are better at systemizing than women, and that women are better at empathizing than men due to physical differences between male and female brains. Hans Asperger himself said that his patients had "an extreme version of the male form of intelligence."

The concept of differing types of intelligence in males and females is controvesial though, and remains speculativ

Einstein and Newton

It has been speculated that Isaac Newton had what is now considered Asperger syndrome.

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It has been speculated that Isaac Newton had what is now considered Asperger syndrome.

Albert Einstein and Isaac Newton may have had Asperger's syndrome, but a definitive diagnosis is currently impossible as both scientists died before this condition came to be known. Albert Einstein's brain has been preserved. As physical features of the brain connected with autism become better known it may become possible to tell whether Einstein has those features.

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The case that Albert Einstein and Isaac Newton were autistic

Professor Simon Baron-Cohen of the Autism Research Centre at Cambridge University, and Ioan James of Oxford University both believe that Albert Einstein and Isaac Newton had personalities consistent with Asperger's syndrome [18]. Professor Michael Fitzgerald, of Dublin's Trinity College believes that Einstein, Newton and others may have shown signs of Asperger's syndrome. [19] This tends to involve difficulties with social skills and preoccupation with complex subjects like music, which Einstein had. Fitzgerald claims we should accept and tolerate eccentrics as they frequently have positive contributions to make.

Albert Einstein and Isaac Newton both experienced intense intellectual interests in specific limited areas. Both scientists had trouble reacting appropriately in social situations and had difficulty communicating. Both scientists sometimes became so involved with their work that they did not eat. Newton spoke little and was frequently lukewarm or bad-tempered with the few friends he had. If no one attended his lecture he still lectured to an empty room. When he was 50, Newton suffered a nervous breakdown involving depression and paranoia.

It has been speculated that Albert Einstein was on what is now considered the autistic spectrum.

Enlarge

It has been speculated that Albert Einstein was on what is now considered the autistic spectrum.

Einstein's career was devoted to complex mathematics. In the article "Autism, Genius, and Greatness" on the Autistic Advocacy website, Frank Klein claims “(Einstein’s) autistic traits, and his near-certain place on the autistic spectrum, are well-known in the autistic community” [20]. Klein believes Einstein was typical of capable autistic people as he was logical and analytical though socially awkward and needed daily solitude, and that, being extremely "perseverative", he could give more time to a problem of interest than any normal person could have. Klein suggests that autistic people "have an affinity for objects (tangible or otherwise) rather than people," and that the object of Einstein’s attention was physics. Klein feels further it is good that Einstein had not been subject to misguided therapy or intervention. Such intervention Klein feels, could have hindered him in developing his unique abilities in mathematics and physics.

In a paper titled An Inside View of Autism, Temple Grandin said, "I had the opportunity to visit some of Einstein's relatives. His family history has a high incidence of autism, dyslexia, food allergies, giftedness, and musical talent. Einstein himself had many autistic traits" [21].

People claim that Albert Einstein was a loner as a child, was a late speaker and repeated sentences obsessively up to the age of seven. As an adult his lectures were confusing. He needed his wives to act as parents when he was an adult; factors people claim make him "obviously" (or at least stereotypically) autistic. He was also the stereotypical "absent-minded professor"; he was often forgetful of everyday items, such as keys, and would focus so intently on solving physics problems that he would often become oblivious to his surroundings. In his later years, his appearance inadvertently created (or reflected) another stereotype of scientist in the process: the researcher with unruly white hair. When Albert Einstein's brain was removed at autopsy and studied, researchers found that his Sylvian fissure was truncated. Abnormalities of the sylvian fissure may be associated with autism and speech problems. [22]. Indeed it is claimed that the first words Einstein spoke at the age 4 years were, "The soup is cold".

Finally, in the words of Albert Einstein [23]

"My passionate sense of social justice and social responsibility has always contrasted oddly with my pronounced lack of need for direct contact with other human beings and human communities. I am truly a lone traveler and have never belonged to my country, my home, my friends, or even my immediate family, with my whole heart; in the face of all these ties, I have never lost a sense of distance and a need for solitude..."

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The case that Albert Einstein and Isaac Newton were not autistic

By contrast, Dr. Glen Elliott, a psychiatrist at the University of California at San Francisco, is unconvinced that either scientist had Asperger syndrome [24]. "One can imagine geniuses who are socially inept and yet not remotely autistic," he said. He believes geniuses can experience social difficulties without being autistic, can develop narcissism, and can become passionate over their work and mission. They can also become impatient when others cannot understand easily what they understand. Further, Glen Elliott believes that people with severe Asperger's syndrome do not have a good sense of humour as Einstein reputedly had. In any case, Glen Elliott only claims that Einstein could not have had what he sees as "severe Asperger's syndrome". If this is true it does not preclude the possibility of Einstein having had different autistic traits or a different type of autism.

By contrast, Wrong Planet states that those with Asperger’s Syndrome frequently are unusually gifted in humour, especially in doggerel, puns, satire and wordplay [25]. Also, Viktoria Lyons and Michael Fitzgerald [26] state that the claimed absence of humour in autism and Asperger’s Syndrome is not always true and they describe several individuals with Asperger’s Syndrome that display a sense of humour. They further suggest that a minority of such individuals, especially those that are mathematically gifted, can possess a sense of humour that is superior than average due to their unusual personalities, experience and intelligence. Others also are unconvinced and believe the two scientists' personality quirks could have been caused by their high intelligence. Some Einstein biographers, such as Albert Einstein in the World Wide Web, say that he actually did well in school, and the belief to the contrary is only a myth based on a difference in grading policy.

High-functioning autists may be considered "little professors", but that doesn't mean all eccentric professors are autistic. One of the signals that a person is autistic is that they are "mind blind". That is, have difficulty inferring information about the intentions of others, and Einstein's views on politics were sensitive and sophisticated. However, a person does not have to show every possible autistic characteristic to be considered autistic. Furthermore, at a recent conference of the American Association for the Advancement of Science evidence was presented that suggested the previously held "Theory of Mind" hypothesis for autism was incorrect. As the concept of "mind-blindness" in autistics originates in the idea that they have no "Theory of Mind" -a means of perceiving the existence of others - this would also seem to invalidate an argument against Einstein's alleged autistic tendencies.

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Controversy

This speculation is controversial. Some people claim these people only represent very mild cases. Some alleged famous autistics may only have a few autistic traits - not enough for a diagnosis. It has been claimed that it is simply not possible to diagnose the dead, so nothing can be said about speculation of historical figures.

People who believe the assertions have responded to the criticism, saying there was no knowledge of autism at the time these people were alive, so the fact that autistic people were undiagnosed does not mean they were not autistic; it simply means their autism was not known.

Ik vind dus dat we Einstein's wel of niet autistisch zijn buiten de discussies over autisme moeten houden.  

Wat denken jullie?

Het is bewezen dat het gemiddelde logicaIQ bij mensen die het Aspergersyndroom hebben hoger ligt dan het gemiddelde logicaIQ bij alle mensen.

Daarin ben ik het niet met hem eens. Omdat je nooit sluitend zal kunnen aantonen dat Einstein autistisch was, zul je op basis van een aanname nooit bruikbare conclusies kunnen trekken voor hulp aan mensen met het syndroom van Asperger, die depressief of suicidaal zijn.  

Veel beter is het toch om je te richten op mensen met AS die NIET depressief of suicidaal zijn en te kijken hoe zij daarmee omgaan?  

Of zie ik het nu te simpel?  

Ik kan me voorstellen dat het voor sommige mensen een troostrijke gedachte is om te denken dat Einstein AS had, maar wat als deze (hardnekkige) aanname niet meer blijkt te zijn dan "valse hoop?"  

Henriette schreef:

Veertje schreef:Ik vind dus dat we Einstein's wel of niet autistisch zijn buiten de discussies over autisme moeten houden.  

Wat denken jullie?

Ik ben het met je eens Veertje. Het is heel interessant iemands levensgeschiedenis te bestuderen... vooral wanneer hij/zij grootse dingen heeft gedaan. Maar psychologische of psychiatrische diagnose kan men naar mijn idee alleen bij leven doen. Zo gaan over Hitler ook allerlei fantastische diagnoses de rondte.

Welke functie zou dit hebben voor de mens?

Willen begrijpen of een pleister?

Kan je me verwijzen naar waar je dit vandaan hebt? Want dit geloof ik niet.

In his 2003 book The Essential Difference, professor Simon Baron-Cohen of the Autism Research Centre argued for the extreme male brain theory, which suggests that Asperger syndrome and autism represent an extreme form of the way in which men's brains differ from those of women[1][2]. As a result, people with Asperger Syndrome are good (often very good) at systemizing and very bad at empathizing [3][4]. The theory is linked with Baron-Cohen's "empathizing/systemizing (E-S)" theory which states that, in general, men are better at systemizing than women, and that women are better at empathizing than men due to physical differences between male and female brains. Hans Asperger himself said that his patients had "an extreme version of the male form of intelligence."  

The concept of differing types of intelligence in males and females is controvesial though, and remains speculativ

Ja  

Het is bewezen dat het gemiddelde logicaIQ bij mensen die het Aspergersyndroom hebben hoger ligt dan het gemiddelde logicaIQ bij alle mensen.  

Zoiezo is dat al lang bekend van observatie en verhalen maar het is ook officieel bewezen met testen. Ik verwijs naar de Noorderlichtreportage "Schrijven met de verkeerde hand". (ging over Asperger)  

Kijk daar maar eens naar, het is leerzaam.  

Even een korte inleiding: het viel de wetenschappers (één van Cambridge University!) op dat mensen met het Aspergersyndroom overmannelijk zijn. Mannen verschillen van vrouwen, die eigenschappen die mannen sterker/zwakker hebben zijn bij Aspergermannen en Aspergervrouwen nog sterker/zwakker.  

Op basis daarvan hadden ze de hypothese ontwikkeld dat de hersenen bij autistische kinderen (of 1 variant er van in ieder geval) te veel door de geslachtshormonen beïnvloed worden. Delen van de hersenen hebben bijvoorbeeld Receptoren (de cellen hebben die receptoren dus) voor testosteron.  

Ze zijn die hypothese gaan toetsen:  

- De testosteron/oestrogeen verhouding was inderdaad te hoog bij autistische mensen  

- De ringvinger/middelvinger verhouding was te groot, groter dan bij 'normale' mensen. Zelfs bij de vrouwen met Asperger groter dan bij de 'normale' man. Die verhouding is (vraag me niet hoe) een weerspiegeling van de geslachtshormoonverhouding.  

- Ze hebben 2 soorten intelligentietesten gedaan, één waar mensen die het Aspergersyndroom hebben beduidend beter presteerden (logica, technisch inzicht) en één waar ze veel slechter in presteerden (herkennen van miniek van gezichten). Blijkbaar is het één overgestimuleerd ten koste van het ander. Het spreekt voor zich dat als je de miniek van gezichten slecht herkent dat dat het sociaal functioneren belemmert (mijn persoonlijke hypothese de mogelijke oorzaak is dat ze een slecht visueel geheugen hadden als kind).  

Gelukkig blijkt dat bij testen jaren later het herkennen van de miniek verbeterd is.  

Enneh... wat is logicaIQ?

Het wordt algemeen aangenomen dat Einstein autistisch was.

Inderdaad had hij veel symptomen van autisme;

- hij begon pas op zeer late leeftijd te spreken

- hij was een matige leerling op de middelbare school en haalde alleen maar goede cijfers voor natuurkunde en in mindere mate voor natuurkunde

- hij was een middelmatige leerling op de universiteit ondank zijn uitzonderlijke intelligentie

- hij had in principe slechte sociale vaardigheden en gedroeg zich onaangepast (kleding, haar, einzelganger) wat hij gelukkig voor hem deels compenseerde met zijn grote humor. Het is tegenwoordig algemeen bekend dat sommige mensen met het Asperger syndroom een groot gevoel voor humor hebben, wellicht als compensatie.

- op jongere leeftijd was hij alleen maar bezig met natuurkunde. Autistische mensen hebben vaak één of andere obsessie (omdat velen van hun niet zo van verandering houden?), bij Einstein was die obsessie duidelijk Natuurkunde. Op latere leeftijd kreeg hij veel interesse in politiek en literatuur. Is dat niet wat vreemd? Normaal hebben mensen dat of vanaf hun jongere jaren al of niet.

Dat impliceert dat er mogelijk ook het één en ander verandert is in zijn hersenen bij het ouder worden al is dit geen sluitende indicator daarvoor.

- hij had een zeer goede logica, dit is toch één van de kenmerken van het Asperger-syndroom, zij hebben een betere logica dan de normale mensen. Andere uitzondering zijn natuurlijk weer de dyslectische mensen die daardoor moeite hebben met taal. Einstein had geen moeite met taal wat ook wel meer voorkomt bij Asperger.

Dat is juist het kenmerk van een syndroom, het is een beetje nattevinger werk, zeg maar een educated guess.